How as an Adult am I supposed to resist the 'Terrible 5/Learn Method' and instead aquire Japanese as a Child would?!?

Learning about the‘Comprehensive Immersion’ method of language acquisition initially gave me hope I could actually learn Japanese. BUT now after diving even deeper into it I’m not so sure.

If doing the The Terrible Five is anathema to learning a language as an Adult

  • No Speaking (Forced early output)
  • No Dictionaries (Looking up word meanings)
  • No Notes (Taking notes)
  • No Questions (Asking my Japanese Wife questions about the language)
  • No Analyzing (That seems really impossible, I work in IT and I analyze problems all day long)

Then what the heck am I as an Adult learner supposed to do! As Adults we do all of the above 5 naturally day to day with our learning of new things. It’s how we learn as ‘Adults’. How the heck am I summoned to resist doing any of the 5?!?

I get that the goal seems to be to do none of the things we instinctively want to do as Adults when learning to try and emulate what Children do when learning. But resisting the urge to do the ‘Adult’ things seems an insurmountable task.

Since I’ve already learned 100’s of individual Japanese words from my Japanese Wife am I screwed. Has Forced Early Output (FEO) permanently damaged my LAP Language Acquisition Process (LAP) lol?

I will say my anxiety level around learning a new language is at an all time high from an already high level. I’ve never been good at learning other languages and it feels like an even bigger mountain top to climb than before.

I really do feel that the time to learn a language is as a kid. I know millions of adults across the world learn new languages every year guys man it feels close to an insurmountable atm for me at least.

P.S. of course I did sign up for CIJapanese so I am contradicting myself :grin:. I am also blowing off some steam ‘kvetching’ here but still would like to hear from the instructors (or students) if possible how one can reconcile this seeming incongruity of Adults trying to learn a language the way Children naturally do.

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I’m not an instructor but as someone who has used this website for almost 1 year, I thought I would chime in with my thoughts :saluting_face: (my total lifetime hours is only 74 hours though lol so I’m definitely not an expert on CI)

Every person learns differently, but I would say that people new to CI should just try to chill when they watch a CI video. You’ll find that with repeated exposure, you’ll start to naturally acquire vocabulary and grammar structures without even trying. I also don’t think it’s a bad thing to look up things once in a while; sometimes you naturally pick something up and sometimes you don’t. It’s not a big deal.

I know people who say that they don’t want to speak Japanese until they’re “ready” because there are some studies that show that forced early output actually doesn’t help. That’s fine; everyone is different, but personally, I was in a speaking program in a Japanese language school in Japan and we were forced to speak from day 1. It worked for all of us, but I do think it’s because we were in a controlled environment and supervised by qualified language teachers who were there to facilitate our conversations and correct us. (And you know, there was the fact that we were literally in Japan and had to use the language :slightly_smiling_face:)

Ci is cool because it helps you understand Japanese (which you obviously need to do in order to have a conversation).

So in my opinion and experience, I don’t think anything is wrong with forced early output. But for absolute beginners, it’s probably a good idea to watch some CI videos and learn the phonetics of their target language before they try to produce speech.

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I might not be a teacher, but as someone who has spent six months devouring anything and everything about CI in the past, I like to think that I know this and that.
(I have never thought I could hate the word immersion even more, but comprehensive immersion sounds so much worse, even though technically it is correct. INTJ problems, haha.)

Speaking is not prohibited. Forcing a student to speak by suddenly calling on them, thus putting an immense amount of pressure and anxiety on them, is or at least should be. You see, this raises something called the Affective Filter. When we are under stress or/and have anxiety the input won’t reach the language acquisition device, meaning it doesn’t matter how comprehensible the input is it won’t be acquired.
Now, you have a super advantage compared to someone like me. You have a native speaker! Talking with your wife is excellent opportunity for even more input. You could even discuss the topic of a liked video with her making it even more effective. Essentially you have direct access to Japan, haha. (I am so jealous! :face_with_tongue:)
Talking is not prohibited at all. In a good program students are free to engage with the teacher when they feel like. Emphasis on the when they feel like. The point is, that simply talking won’t do anything. Talking and getting input through the conversation is brilliant, though. Some may object that, for example, student and student conversations are bad, because they can potentially acquire incorrect things, but through enough CI these things are corrected and the benefit of even more input outweighs these kind of concerns. After all we are not native speakers and we are bound to make mistakes. I am Hungarian and don’t get me started how bad my native language is. Agh, I like to say that English is more of a native language to me.

Ah yes, no dictionaries is a pretty hard rule I cannot drop. But, I shall be a bit less stubborn and advise you what Kato Lomb did in her book How I learn languages (1970). First try to figure it out. Look at the context, play with some ideas. When you still can’t get it, translate it. I rarely use a dictionary, out of laziness mostly, but I usually check a word to see if I guessed it right and I am always so proud of myself when I do. :smiley:
The reason why no dictionaries makes sense is, because if the word you don’t understand is a 1K-2K one, so a frequent one, it will pop up again. Eventually it will be explained somewhere, but for this to happen you need a lot of input. I rarely rewatch a video. This is actually accounted to the Story Listening method. Basically the very first CIJ videos with Yuki sensei talking while drawing on a whiteboard. Story Listening is connected to Beniko Mason who is Japanese as well. :smiley: Dr Krashen and with Beniko Mason looked at what was the best thing to do after a Story Listening session. It turned out that telling another story, so more input, was the past way and lead to the most acquired words. My days can be really busy at times and my attention is incredibly poor, so I am happy when I finish my daily goal of 2 hours. I have no energy to go dictionary hunting, even though I have one on my phone.
Ah yes, one thing that might be good down the road, or now given I don’t know your level haha, is a single language dictionary which explains the words in Japanese. Now that is good. I had to bully my friend into using one for English because he expected to acquire words from English literature which were waaaaaay above his level. After weeks of me picking on him and also he getting bored of constantly translating he started translating less and only when he couldn’t understand the story. Guess who came to me saying I was right, hehe.

Again, I am a lazy sack of rice, so I cannot be bother as of now. :smiley:
To this I once again can only suggest what Kato Lomb did in her book. Namely only note down what you have understood and not what you didn’t. Since you have a native speaker readily available you could do little situations which can be used in real life. Noting those down can serve as practice for kanji as well. The audio-lingual method featured something like this, well, the World War 2 original version. Where the previously drilled in situations were practiced with a native speaker one on one. Naturally, the drills were kept, but the native speaker part got eliminated in the audio-lingual method.
Journaling also seems popular, again, I am too lazy and my eyes don’t really work after 9 pm, haha.

Hmm, I mean you can ask questions, but that is more linguistics, than input. Again, if you do it in Japanese, that is good. If it is in English, that won’t really help.
Not long ago I got curious why “shika”, only, is followed by a negative form. Well, I got no answer to that, but everyone made sure to let me know that it is always followed by the negative. Yes I know, thanks for telling me the obvious…. Grammar is just, ugh. A language is alive and changing, grammar rules can define the general ways, but a lot of things have to do with culture. Just take keigo for example, the formal language in Japanese. Just, because you have said it in keigo it doesn’t mean it is correct. Certain words work only in certain situations. Grammar cannot account for them.

My man, I have an excel spreadsheet with my daily input hours, haha.
Once again, if it is in Japanese, than it will help your acquisition given it is comprehensible. If not, it serves as linguistical interest and maybe motivation. The main idea should be acquisition first, fun second. As long as you get plenty of input it doesn’t really matter what you will do afterwards. Just make sure not to pause 19 times in a 6 minute video, haha.

Also, you having learnt that many individual words isn’t bad at all, at most useless. I can imagine a lot of them won’t pop up naturally in your head when the need arises, but that’s how everyone starts. First words, then phrases, then half sentences/simple sentences and at last more and more complex thoughts. (Phases of speech emergence)

At last I will leave you with some real material which might help satisfy your thirst for more or give some hope.
The sacred text of language acquisition the 1983 The Natural Approach. The sole thing you need to understand CI.

The greatness and absolute legend that is Kato Lomb the first simultaneous interpreter in Europe. She is Hungarian too, but Hungary has completely forgotten about her even though she technically promoted CI before even it was a thing.

Hope this helps.

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Thank you very much for all the great feedback info and encouragement, I appreciate it. :grinning_face: :goblin: :ogre:

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Come and join us at CIJ discord server. If you haven´t already. Lot of your questions is being discussed there basically every day. Lots of people there, using different methods, being at various levels of Japanese and keeping each other motivated.

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the ‘no analyzing’ comes from Dr. Marvin Brown who implemented the listening approach in a school teaching Thai and English. He found that to be the best approach i.e he initially recognized that those who were in the country and picked up the language incidentally through exposure tended to have the best lifetime ability… as in accent, listening ability and overall fluency

That being said I don’t think you should do anything that hurts your love of the language.
If you love to speak the language and want to do so early then do so… It may not be optimal but “not optimal” is usualy optimal for most long-term endeavors because you will stick with what you enjoy.

I’d say that if you do just want to try the “don’t analyze” approach the way is to guess what is being said at the specific moment of the media you’re watching – I’ve heard it called ‘seeing with your ears’ you don’t analyze the language itself but the meaning behind the language – but once again do what will get you into the language and studying not what makes you anxious and avoidant!

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DOH! I never even thought there would be a Discord server.

A quick search of the Comprehensible Japanese website and Google doesn’t come up with anything though for the discord link.

Would someone please share an invite link here.

P.S.
I did find there is a subreddit but it’s not super active (though not dead either) Reddit - The heart of the internet

I think that the link was sent to me when I subscribed.


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TY for the link.

I checked my saved emails and I didn’t find a discord invite. But I wanted to post proof below I am an active subscriber. I don’t want the admins to think I’m getting free access to the discord.

Let me contact CIJ web developer. He is active on that discord

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I was able to join the discord with the link you provided so I’m good.

I just didn’t want the CIJ company to worry I was getting ‘free’ access. I value the work CIJ is doing and feel it’s worth paying for.

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I’ll just share my experience learning Thai. I went to Thai language school for a few months before learning about Comprehensible Thai, which is a YouTube channel similar to this site that uses comprehensible input to teach Thai. The difference is it already has thousands of hours of leveled content that takes you from total beginner to advanced. At the level I was at, switching from formal study to this method did not cause me any harm. I just took a break from speaking Thai and only used it when I needed to (I was living in Thailand at the time). My Thai friend tells me my accent is 100% understandable with zero effort on his part, and I can easily think in Thai and use natural sentence structures. So I don’t think you have anything at all to worry about at this stage of your learning.

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This is encouraging to hear and I think it’s important as well for those who think there is some sort of conflict between the study v CI approach

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Personally, I tried the ungraded method for about 3 weeks. It’s great for listening, but it’s not great for writing and speaking. Unless the word or sentence structure is repeated over and over, I can’t remember it.
To be able to remember things well, I need to take notes or pay attention. Otherwise, it’s like listening to a lecture without taking any notes. It doesn’t work very well.

Currently, I’m studying Kanji. I watch the video and at the same time, I try to take some Kanji (even if I take a little too much for my liking). After a few videos, I read the written transcript to test my knowledge of Kanji. It works pretty well.


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